Home>Latest Shows>>Bicycle Safety

Bicycle Safety

Nov 19, 2013|

A discussion with Jonathan Maus, from BikePortland.org, and Michael Morrow, from Nutcase Helmets, about all things bikes in Portland, from safety to lawmaking to our status as a national leader in bicycle culture

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

You're listening to mattress company a series of interviews with people of interest in northwest Oregon and southwest Washington I'm your host -- Douglas as well as you know from the living in this area of Portland is a huge huge huge -- -- so today we're going to address the many many issues surrounding net bicycles and how you interact with them on the streets how they interact reviewed. He was surrounding bicycles safeties around in bicycles this just to be bicycle mania so discuss just that very thing I have with me. Jonathan -- from a bike Portland dot org and Michael moral from a nut case helmets howry gentleman did Danks -- -- all right so just and you you right. For a block brain that has a certain needs some advocacy elements to it but in general just -- -- about the biking community is that correct yeah -- we do -- BC India in -- -- community news web site that covers all facets of bicycling in Portland and in the region and -- nationally sometimes -- is basically like using your time from -- is how accountants have got a perfect perfect and Michael -- little bit about your company. Well we're -- nut case Thomas -- started from five years ago and kind of creativity and safety combined and we make helmets for bicycle and as well as skateboarding -- -- -- motorcycle coming up what's the difference between a motorcycle helmet. A stable home and analyze skating helps us safety laws for them they are tested four different kinds of activities so motorcycling are gone faster on the road -- of the certified for motorcycles or or motors and a -- bicycling a little bit less the still stringent season has a different safety certifications that are -- case or Federer I -- -- regulated and some aren't -- examples not regulated -- will be -- -- then more accidents and -- out on the snow on -- -- last from the Nazis and Europe right. But so right now the voluntary deal and that that's pretty much by the regulations out there other different. Now -- by Scola scores -- earth constantly changing -- upgraded depending on you know what accidents happened that year people are costly revisiting those laws do those by school laws today specifically helmet laws -- RG hindering bicycle for inspiration are they increasing bicycle participation of people feel like it's safer if they're wearing a helmet or is there resistance to. That's debatable John -- heard some of that on his blog you know in our mind is helping overall on the one hand the kids decide things and move. He got a lot of parents in the last ten years confront our generation you know thirty to 45. -- being accused more actively involved and they are buying a lot of moments they're going -- -- -- so that's not hindering anything there so -- -- a generational -- command when I was can't that would have been kind of -- meaning there yeah I don't know -- -- at all but now easy kids on the street. Yes typically they're now and how we -- You know we make counts now but prior to this we wouldn't have thought about wearing helmets either right but now we do of course there's a big shift in consciousness around that but I know a lot of folks -- you know pure cycle us and they on the -- moment and that to this day there -- you don't have to you know -- -- over sixteen probably decision you know you don't have to -- you don't have to you know it's only alternate you know -- I thought I didn't I -- there's more more people buying them wearing it because it's part of they have heard something bad you know again it's fallen more than general public and recreation -- and it -- You aren't flying downhill too much. But in -- dollars in the young kids who are doing crazy colonial things they are wearing them that well I think there was a time when I was bound I think anything good about. Eight years old are -- house is a cul-de-sac -- the bomb very very steep long street and of course great trying to -- a pipe down coming down in my -- there's says stick on the road I thought -- just a little did we leave over the top of the stick boy did not to -- we looked a little bit and came down right on the stick stuff the wheels turn my bike you know. The best over tea kettle at night to crack my head open but good flow walked back home. Good bye coming home you know I can't see myself but. Knocked on the -- my grandmother stay with us she opened the door and saw her -- -- -- covered in -- And after that it was like you're gonna Wear a helmet and you know I would do -- he's right where the helmet and get out of sight of the house and how low and the bush and Clinton -- -- later. But certainly you know not a bad idea for the helmet had I have no helmet no cracked open -- No I mean I could I Agassi -- from NIC from all sides I mean it's really a larger sort of cultural issue and I think some people have in terms of you know -- we have mandatory helmet laws are not mean up and -- Washington just north of us it is always -- mandatory helmet -- so look the laws are all over the map button. In that did the difficult thing with the with the way people see bicycling and in America and our culture is that it's a real hybrid and a lot people think of them. Closer more closely aligned to people who lock you know a lot of people don't think they belong on the -- -- other people that feel they should have exactly equal rights so erodes it's all over the map and our laws reflect that so if you start to think about you know whether or not people on -- should have a helmet amending its great that people over sixteen can make that choice churning in an imperfect world wouldn't you wouldn't be necessary and also with the look at our sort of counterparts in Europe where only uses unheard of -- on bicycles and -- these -- cities where -- really are on equal footing as as driving cell. Mean that's kind of an interesting thing to add into it yet say well wind European it does nobody Wear helmet -- and he goes back to the culture in the way we see bicycling in America as is as as a recreational thing for fun to do. In the driveway when your kid. We don't necessarily see it as a serious mode of transportation right now so we get in this attitude of more. Safety is a real you know -- that people get real excited about in and people sort of you know some consciously or not are purposefully or not like to talk about how dangerous it is and how you can get -- if you don't do it right so please pat yourself against everything and. You know -- it -- to see different there's. Yeah I mean it certainly depends on the day for me if I'm driving and I get cut off by and a bike well then I hate -- that day. And then you know fish other days it's like -- that makes perfect sense it's helping the environment it's keeping people in shape and that yin and Yang of of the bicycling world. Thank you do you come from California Jonathan ray is there a huge difference tree where he came from and can -- as far as spies -- being part of the community. Oh absolutely I mean in California it's in bicycling is more sort of a classic American perspective on -- go to be she see tons of people on beach cruisers. But you know around the suburbs where I grew up with a bunch of you know stone walls and -- Saxton RN housing tracts -- mean. You see kids on the sidewalk you see kids you know cruise around baseball cards and their spokesman park effective but you don't really see a lot of bikes out on the street if you do their full of the micro and headed out for a long -- and you know that's obviously completely different important you know like -- -- offices India Michael's -- -- himself he's a mean. The place from bikes this year and while the time to Wear this and. Portland were a little -- is you know Biden is that he USA here's very different we're trying to vehicle Canadian and their bills is try and be -- with the previous -- SF yeah era that we're not only to some extent you know and so people where LC -- -- by culture here but the rest of the country -- -- little -- cars yet we're early trucks. Like to say were sort of the best of the worst. Here in the North America. You know I mean I think -- now actually any US Mike ridership to according to census is I think it's barely over 1%. If that. -- seeing now is there's really love cities around the country where -- -- way -- on the you know -- -- you know exceptions to the rule for the most part America witnesses got two things going on a lot cities there's a lot of lot of guys' activity a lot more -- going on but overall across the country it's still very very marginalized in terms of rats not people doing. Now Michael -- -- company you know what would you do that. I think that in a little bit of an accident and and bags. Really did it out of -- -- expression individual expression for the civil war ten years ago that I can tell us and us really crazy and now the president is agencies -- -- Daschle didn't yeah. The -- caregivers in the floor if -- Gaza I made eight. Held it does because as my neighbors in effect he was a big duck fan anger across Bure has so. I made this helmet for the game is the first really the first cheerleader team had been in the top ten ranked man's 2000 ranked so I designed my helmet that had. These screws on top of the black Helm of the orange Oregon State graphics on it may take up made and river dikes in -- on the Helen its predecessor went to the game could be in a big hitter -- SI ward where the different games refiner laser com -- guy. I started making more of them like for the husky game and I had a dog bone gone around the top -- sugar. And I made a couple for duck fans is my sister's -- than they'd want for her for that Terry -- yeah well you know eagle opportunity -- -- nice -- -- -- -- -- was -- the interaction at that game -- maybe -- -- -- -- about expression in -- -- -- like this and is in our style -- as you know as a multi -- style -- it's -- like the traditional -- -- at the -- with all -- events and things -- -- -- -- still consider -- -- multiple -- -- -- -- and he divisive -- and razor -- and right and that's how we're gonna gonna start is because I saw Adam went -- when I looked at the helmet market bright and you know no disrespect to balance -- -- but they all kind of blame again it is kind of look. We'll -- mean like one of the reasons I guess and as a kid I would become deadly -- to help our cool lets your pure cycle is running over equipment and the like colonel that right. Lot of other people wouldn't be caught dead with one of those also. -- -- the you know college campuses kids were advice there there is skateboards is small towns and they don't look very good or even the graphics are just gonna Barney dinosaurs right from desolate path right. So that's what led me as a graphic designer or to Nike for ten years sunny thing -- and his opportunities so we whipped up cool grass. It's right in helmets out supply out to -- few years and him look good name in and then then we are gonna allow okay now gotten into the fight industry world community -- keep this fight world kind of a roundabout way -- you know but. I grew up sports fans so I'm like all sports right you know so for me it's great is its design and sports creativity safety comforts all the things that kind of loved doing tonight and geography being -- just found the best place in the states to be the right forum so yeah. The timing is interesting with what Michael's in that case in terms of. But -- bicycling really taking off in the last couple years have been a part of that is people starting did understand that you know you can Wear regular clothes and be -- you know being nice and fashionable when you ride your -- so right you know since a -- people choose to Wear a helmet you know having a company like -- and having nut case have -- really -- helmet designs right kind of fits with -- -- I think there's there's actually been a play off of -- I think yes. The new urban bicycling thing is sort of helping Michael's business and then. Michael's helmets are starting to kind of help people feel a little bit cooler now you know wearing a helmet and I can just -- -- -- integration into the yeah. And you get you know we kind of figured out that well there's -- people other gonna buy a new bike. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- But the nice this column that we should have probably ever gotten is from hard core Dutch bike shop them literally hates helmets you know that's clearly illustrate. What if I had to Wear our weary years you know that's like we get that all the time of -- so you know it you're right that is kind of part of that play well. I every day and think that the the idea of making a fashionable helmet is hugely important to making a bicycle community of further integrated into into how we do things especially as a major motor transportation because people did think of bicycle says being the guys in the -- and then you know -- -- team out that's all that's. But if you're gonna start using your bike to get to work or get two events or get whenever you need to be. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- It's it's not as practical -- react -- right. If you're just joining us you're listening to masters cup series of interviews with people of interest in northwest Oregon and southwest Washington I'm your host Ted Douglas. And speaking today with Jonathan mosque from a -- Portland dot org and Michael -- from a nut case helmets were speaking about our school community the culture that is such a huge part of Portland and some of the issues around helmets around safety and about advocacy Jonathan you do your website your -- what led you to start -- such thing. Well -- would -- before I am I'm from California release are born and raised in in east LA in the north Orange County California so it came from place it was. In more concrete jungle -- more cars rules and so when I moved up to Portland in 2004 I think I really didn't take a grand what was happening here when I saw when I started looking around was this amazing creative vibrant exciting culture around bicycling a lot of people involved with it lots and he rides going on the city. These were you doing a lot of great things it was actually bike ways in the street -- see and right on so I was like. Yeah I've been involved -- by sitting for long times it was a big big racer back in the day -- something so I sort of have eyes for bicycling so you don't -- to appear as just was really. Excited ending got interested in in what was going on in the community around bicycling so there was when blogging was just first started happening really in the fifth I was sort of a communications professional if you will so I thought you know I should I get to figure out these -- things are all about so. When he led to another night ice just started reading about bicycles on the Internet and in response to -- requests from -- -- and had a little -- on the on their -- went back so let's just it just grew from there after a while -- launch my own site independently. Aisle and started just document -- that what I was seeing in the street documenting projects that we're going non politics what people were doing funny Ryan you know clowns on by aches and you know signing all facets of of the culture for -- -- Sort of you know the ridiculous all the way up to Iceland 125 and Alberta and very familiar with the guys on bike trip to pay a simple. There's been a lot of fun so it's just really just stand and documenting what was going on in in Portland is such a leader for bicycling and such especially when I started Portland this. Even more unique in this in the what was going on around the culture now I think partly because my -- -- partly because you know with the proliferation of but the -- in and self publishing. A lot of other cities are starting to do some similar things we're doing around the cultural aspect and putting on funny rides in themed rides and you know doing other things in the streets so you know bid to -- -- -- people looked at Portland has this amazing -- town like Portland provided and that window and I dated -- basis -- what was going on here so you know from from planners and you know Sheboygan who are trying to figure out how to put bikes on their streets to. To kids in Chicago looking to make like a punk bike gang I mean they make it all look at. I Portland and see photographs and see drawings from the city and how they were planning things in -- so lead sort of just built in audience from there and now that supports me in sort of become real business general news site. Portland having such a huge bite culture sometimes the issue and that world gets a bit politicized. And certainly you have opinions on that sort of thing. How do you balance doing objective journalism about bicycling. With your opinions and some of the advocacy involved with. Very carefully -- that's a fair enough he had very challenging and it's something I'll never figure out -- is an ongoing. Project and process to that to balance those two things but. I mean basically I try to just report what I see. And it's basically showing people look this is what's going on for instance you know an audience is mostly made up of people that ride bikes a lot of times people can read between the lions of what's going on -- you know based on. The way am laying things out based on what's happening in general. I don't always have to interject my personal opinion in -- I really don't know if they follow this I didn't know you as a writer exactly and just if you look at the stories overtime you're trying to educate people on her inform them what's going on and you know it's pretty rare -- at all -- -- never interject my personal opinion on a news story which -- people can figure out what's -- -- was not. If there's an editorial or something it's opinionated it's clearly enabled. An opinion on editorial of course is not perfect because I write -- news and I read the editorials. My name's on both the hell happened on the fifth the same part of the page so they -- they read everything you're gonna figure it out yeah exactly so it ends up working at the end of the day but it's complicated and messy sometimes too. Are you fighting in Portland that there is a a shift from recreation to transportation is it becoming a bigger part of how people are getting around in town. Is that taking away from the recreational side of things or is it kind of equal where we I don't see it as being either or OK and I just see it as people are riding bikes I mean it's funny how we -- conversation. And Loren -- bicycling -- a recreation transportation -- but we never have a conversation around trying to car when he bluntly I would want to look at you know any of the number of any road and our city whenever those certain you know scenic drives in people going out just for fun or just blow off steam in their car. To go pick up the -- whatever -- you know we don't talk about those cars again because we're we're trying to have these conversations around bicycling as if it's not legitimate or whenever it's like I just don't see like that I mean where one person you know recreation begins on the person's transportation you know starts and you know like you look at the spring water court or look at these things just I'm not mean what Ian eagle count some people there -- creating other people are getting today I -- I mean it's really ridiculous to share think about it it's just we have the system of paved. You know byways and roads and stuff and people ride bikes on and people drive cars and -- I mean I don't really I'm really sort of anti labeling much at all because I think it just makes it too easy for people to start -- everybody up and what they do and makes these vehicles are marginalized things and and other things so it's you know I try to stay on a big picture and just look at. You know it's just people getting around right you know now with our issue with gas prices right now -- through the roof people driving lesson last. Are you seem yield to shifting from -- bike. More and more and more. Yeah absolutely and in 2008 we saw huge spike and knew we had this amazing increase in bike ridership in the city which which city of Portland counts every year and they have counted for decades -- -- -- big big spike in 2008 was clearly from the gas price situation. Can we know that because it actually -- -- -- that the next year as sort of a correction right we talk about you know people driving their cars recreation anymore that's that's as it cheap thing to Darius being like hey it's -- -- let's go for a drive will drive about marble falls or something and they deliver on. But now that's gonna cost fifty bucks he didn't yes exactly and I think you know I think that's the cars are targeted for if you have to drive on the cycle updates. Scott Malone falls have a scene and try I mean if it's most. You know people will sail wide Alabama -- -- kind of how can get up to -- drama bicycle looking around my bicycle I can't quite -- that cycle. That's a little we're talking about AME if you look at you know look at City Hall downtown -- -- -- -- courthouse square and -- and drug you know 34 mile circle around that inserting in that within nastier -- mile radius a bicycle hands down is the most of fish and I will save for arguably the best. Waded takes those trips sure you know in a lot of ways cheapest where you -- most accessible simplest way to take those trips. Let's just focus on us and we've seen that. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- more on the car side of things I I live out of town -- ways and writing of liken it down not really an option for me you know he'd be you hear the term bike Nazi. I'm sure that from -- -- aside there's probably car Nazis is there any way for us all to be friends and get together do we see a solution that coming is that just gonna come for more of the bicycle proliferation. Left. Polluter and I you don't saint. This sound. Yeah absolutely I mean I think the biggest thing will be it will sort of just die off on some Filipino wants more people are bicycling. And this sort of a better balance on the streets of of how we get around -- you know people are our heart it's hard for people to change it's our people to accept that in the mix on our roads is is changing and it absolutely is because we simply can't afford we can't. Fit all the cars on the roads and in it was you know some -- it's been artificially propped up because of massive government subsidies for decades there now we're finding that the government can't pay for those. Roads and things like that anymore so it's another thing that's driving it but. -- as more people bite that stuff is gonna just are dissipating as bikes become more than normal thing you'll hear less of that animosity between him. Now I have to suggest this up and have talked about with friends of mine before as you frustrated not with all bicycle -- but with some who don't seem to adhere to the rules of the road. Because if they if if -- -- -- can do that didn't -- world get I had no problems. But so many don't I've heard a suggestion before you know wired her bicycle licenses -- when you register a bicycle out of they have license -- something to make them. Accountable for their actions on the road is that anything we ever see company get a -- because we have more more bikes on the road I'm excited to make. Mean there's a lot -- that's not -- I don't think it's going to be something we'll see there's there's simple it's just doesn't pencil out financially in terms of who's gonna regulated who's gonna put up put get put in place a system to -- this new licensing I mean I don't know if you. Been reading the news but they're certainly not extra money for less. Being kind of program and I -- Carlo authorities just. Just not practical level it would make sense and I think you know it. If you look at even a bigger picture mean we we want to encourage more people to ride bicycles yes that's you don't have to be an advocate I think to say that I think if you lined up all of our leaders regionally and politicians they would all agree that we need to do something different in terms of our mobility strategy and bicycling is like within that three of -- -- circles makes a lot of sense socialist why would we want to you know put up impediments to you know regulated license and all these sort of things and you know the other part of that is adding it's another one of those things. Where it's about the conversation and how we perceive bicycling yes country coming into an open mind Aggies sort of like you know there's all kinds of things people will start to talk about if they're not comfortable with change in with the status -- changing a little bit and I think. You have all these are red Herring arguments and start to come out how they don't follow the rules though they're just recreation no. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- And it's not that it's and he saw you doing -- to share in the turnover you know he had a prior warrants and yeah yeah that's a different things -- -- again that comes back your name and economy pulls me over -- -- run my name and fire enough you know sell. And -- -- -- -- -- enforcement and bicycles does break the law but exactly because it's all it's just there to do that bicycles -- must sit here and -- at least I think almost every state have to -- the exact same laws cars right so you know it comes down to enforcement. Which you know we all know cops can enforce everything ensure. And you know they use their discretion to enforce the most dangerous an egregious violations -- and I think it says a lot that they tend to -- Very very very few tickets to people on bikes because in their discretion if they realize it bikes don't pose anywhere near. The same amount of dangerous consequences. Us -- -- the delivers on the way to the vehicle sources of by and there's so vulnerable race. That it is kind of silly argument and -- but. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- You know so it's hard to then you know accident after Vietnam bicycles to act the same amount of compliance and even as -- of away. When you've clocked him into the system its full unpredictability and gray areas and dangers you know all these things. They're gonna do they have to do it kind of surviving get around -- and Lotta times that means you know not abiding by the letter of the law. Just watch them and Amsterdam coconut and how works opposite -- the bikes rule it in to the other side of it is sometimes even the -- will not of any wrong and -- be blamed for setting I had to wanna get that little can of worms that's a big reason for me once the laws and plays and get -- out. You know if -- cargoes are light gets hit well you know the airbag goes up their delegates out and exchange information if that happens with a bike. Bikers seriously injured or fatally injured. And it's the driver's fault I didn't move that further that that gray area gets a little more black. And -- but that's a conversation for another time because we're out of time. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- If -- a nonprofit or public affairs org. Position that you would like eleven did you know about please email me at microscope at -- come -- -- -- I'm stressing the need and please put met to scope in the subject lines it doesn't get snagged by my spam filter. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Thank you gentlemen so much that -- so much for listening -- this has been mattress got.